Tea Party

[Nemesis]

Oracle are you an idiot? apparently we share the same belief that we have to win these wars we fight,just not the same reasons, and I take issue with the way you twist historical issues to make them fit your skewed perspective,in particular the Vietnam war and those following,now I didn't see the so called hit piece as you call it in the as you call it the enquirer a conservative paper(you got to be kidding) but I was at the tea party and I feel very comfortable in saying that the quote  about public leaches didn't have any thing to do with police,firefighters, or service workers,it was more about the lifetime public servant political appointees, and elected political figures. I can say with certainty that over the last several years there have been several articles in papers detailing the failings of the police and fire pension funds and pointing up the reasons for that, several of which you failed completely to mention, as far as the service employees pension goes it has been very well managed and is even as we speak very healthy, which makes it a target for those not as well managed, and for those politicians who would like to get their hands on it. As far as the police and fire and service depts being able to collectively bargain they currently have the right to bargain about anything they wish to bargain for, they just don't ultimately have the right to strike being public safety employees and with that I concur, I realize lefties want to europeanize America and give unions the power to cripple our country and hold the American people hostage to their demands, I feel the system works fairly well as it is and we don't need to give all the power to the unions, I think our public employees are very well and highly paid with some of the best benefit packages left in America, leave it alone it works.

[Valley Cat]

Mike,

   The big cover feature last week in the Enquirer (the conservatives paper) did a hit piece on public pensions with very inaccurate reporting, and citing republican politicians and conservative thinkers. The pensions are going broke because the politicians didn't fund them or borrowed from them. The article portrayed public workers as greedy and their benefits as outrageous. Not one director/employee of a pension was interviewed, or a counter point given for the propaganda they were putting out. You should have read the comments from the tea party crowd. "my 401K has been cut in half its' time for these public leeches to feel some pain" ect... Where were these concerns when their 401Ks were making 10% and their bonuses were being paid? This is the same jeallousy they get angry about when poor people think the rich should be taxed more. Mike I agree with many tenants of the conservative movement such as limited governent, but the republicans have been using its "value voters" to advance the agenda of big business and not what is best for this country and they are ending up on the wrong side of alot of issues. For example there is a bill right now that will give police, firemen, and I believe service workers the right to collectively bargain over safety and working conditions. This is the right enjoyed by private sector employees through out the country. Why should people with hazardous occupations not have this same right? The GOP has been fighting this bill tooth and nail, and one of its' biggest opponets is Sen Jim Bunning who was part of the founding of the MLB players association which is a union inside of a monopoly. Just seems a little hypocritical to me.

Oracle,

Gannet gave up its position as a conservative paper a long time ago! (In the interest of full disclosure, the Courier is the ONLY weekly, community newspaper in the Tri-State not owned by Gannet).

I would have to see the bill about bargaining over safety conditions for Fire Fighters and Police Officers - it seems like an oxymoron. I'll always recall the words Bill Welshans told me years ago:

"What's wrong with this picture? Hundreds and hundreds of people are running from this building and then there are dozens of lunatics (my words, not his) rushing into it. Are they nuts?"

It was, of course, said in jest and rhetorically. Fire fighters rush in when mortals flee.

I have trouble believing anyone with a quarter of a brain would want to stand in the way of anything that protects those who risk their lives without a thought. That's why I would like to see the bill or a reference to it.

As an aside, not long after taking over the paper and being a true Libertarian, I penned an article about Fire Fighters insisting (strongly encouraging)  residents to install smoke detectors. My position was that idiots have the right to be idiots. Not two weeks later, I was called to a fire scene the day after the event. A really bad fire in Arlington that destroyed most of the building. One of the people had fallen asleep on the sofa while smoking. He and his family got out alive.

What the fire fighters wanted to show me was the "hero," the object that saved their lives. It was a melted smoke alarm but before it died, it saved two lives.

I know, off topic, but thought it was worth posting!

Mike

[TheOracle]

Mike,

   The big cover feature last week in the Enquirer (the conservatives paper) did a hit piece on public pensions with very inaccurate reporting, and citing republican politicians and conservative thinkers. The pensions are going broke because the politicians didn't fund them or borrowed from them. The article portrayed public workers as greedy and their benefits as outrageous. Not one director/employee of a pension was interviewed, or a counter point given for the propaganda they were putting out. You should have read the comments from the tea party crowd. "my 401K has been cut in half its' time for these public leeches to feel some pain" ect... Where were these concerns when their 401Ks were making 10% and their bonuses were being paid? This is the same jeallousy they get angry about when poor people think the rich should be taxed more. Mike I agree with many tenants of the conservative movement such as limited governent, but the republicans have been using its "value voters" to advance the agenda of big business and not what is best for this country and they are ending up on the wrong side of alot of issues. For example there is a bill right now that will give police, firemen, and I believe service workers the right to collectively bargain over safety and working conditions. This is the right enjoyed by private sector employees through out the country. Why should people with hazardous occupations not have this same right? The GOP has been fighting this bill tooth and nail, and one of its' biggest opponets is Sen Jim Bunning who was part of the founding of the MLB players association which is a union inside of a monopoly. Just seems a little hypocritical to me.

[Valley Cat]

Nemesis,

How do you feel about the conservative movement setting its' sights on public pensions now that they aren't recieving their obscenly large performance bonuses and stock options. Suddenly those midldle class sevice workers, police, and firemen have it to good. How does make you feel that you have worked your whole life doing less than glamourous work making less than the private sector only to have people that for the most part rode the desk tell you your pension is outrageous. If the GOP had their way all a lifetime of public service would get you is a thank you and a swift kick in the rear on the way out so they could hurry up and hire someone at a lower pay grade.

Oracle,

You have a source or cite for this "movement"? Unless it is about the so-called double-dipping plan. I have no problem with anyone making how ever much money they can, from the beggar on the street to the fattest cat on Wall and Broadway.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Madoff. He never forced anyone to buy into his plan to get rich. Again, it's the idea that we need a government to protect us from ourselves, that we don't have a responsibility for our own actions.

Mike

[TheOracle]

Nemesis,

How do you feel about the conservative movement setting its' sights on public pensions now that they aren't recieving their obscenly large performance bonuses and stock options. Suddenly those midldle class sevice workers, police, and firemen have it to good. How does make you feel that you have worked your whole life doing less than glamourous work making less than the private sector only to have people that for the most part rode the desk tell you your pension is outrageous. If the GOP had their way all a lifetime of public service would get you is a thank you and a swift kick in the rear on the way out so they could hurry up and hire someone at a lower pay grade.

[TheOracle]

Nemesis, are you illiterate? I clearly stated we have to win, losing this war would be a disaster that would haunt us for years to come and would embolden terrorist world wide. WE HAVE TO WIN! With that be said, the decision to war was rushed and the planning was half-assed. We went in, just like Afghanistan with to few people and equipment and where suprised when chaos erupted in the aftermath. Bush had his shot at Bin Ladin and screwed it up by trying to half-ass it too. The decision to war was rushed and the reason for it was changed mid course. It became about forcing a democracy on Iraq instead of weapons of mass destruction. I am not saying Saddam is a great guy, he got everything that was comming to him, but his violation of the peace agreement was not the stated reason for going to war. It was all about weapons of mass destruction and Iraq being an imminent threat to US security by teaming up with Al quida, which we all know is a bunch of crap. Iraq was never an imminent threat to the US no matter how you try to spin it. Did you think they would fly one of those buried planes over here and drop one or two chemical weapons on us? We would blow them off the map. Iraq was nowhere close to having the bomb like Iran is now. Iraq has never been linked to Al quaida, Saddam was a secularist who killed more muslim extremist than we could ever hope too. Iran however, is a threat to us and is now in a better position to asssert its' influence in Iraq. That's why we allowed Sadam to mow down the Shites after Desert Storm, because we didn't trust their loyalties to Iran. Just becuase we fight a war doesn't make it a great cause. I think it is a general consesus that Vietnam was a terrible war for us to be in with fuzzy objectives and was terribly mismanaged just like this one. That is not a slam on the troops on the ground they have done their job. It is the politicians that once again failed them.

[Valley Cat]

Either the intelligence was really that bad, or GW had an axe to grind. I think it was the later. Either way we are there and we have to win. I just don't think oops we were wrong about weapons of mass destruction is very consoling to those who have lost love ones.

I think the intelligence was that bad. Saddam believed he had them as his scientists knew they had to lie or lose their life. The UN inspectors thought he had them, so did the British, French, Germans and all the other European countries.

But I think the was was mishandled from the get-go. What ever happened to Shock and Awe? It seemed like we were fighting a war not to lose, instead of fighting to win.

But that was then and this is now. I'm not so much concerned out Obama's exit strategy - he knows he cannot just pull up stakes and leave, though who knows about Nancy, Harry and Barney. But I am very concerned about how he seems eager to appease people who have vowed to do us in, including Chavez. Chavez was bragging over the weekend how he has now planted the seeds of socialism in North America.

Then another major concern is the massive deficit. Obama gets huge credit because he has ordered the cabinet to cut $100 million from their budgets. To you and me, $100 million is some serious jack, but that's like telling someone in order to become fiscally lean, they have to save $1 out of every $35,000 they spend. 

Mike

[Nemesis]

I agree no bail outs, Oracle for the first 6 years,despite the massive attack against our economic system, we recovered and broke all kinds of sustained growth records and the economy was humming along untill the demms came to power in the last two years of the bush Presidency. Oracle what about Saddams daily attacks on US Forces daily for over ten years, and his violation of his terms of surrender for over ten years,turn the other cheek, 07/01/2004 Polish troops find 16 warheads containing Sarin or Mustard gas. 11/11/2004 USMarines find 40 vials of sarin gas in Fallujah during Operation Phantom Fury, 06/22/2006 Agence France Presse  US led coalition forces in Iraq have found 500 chemical weapons since March 2003, these weapons contained mustard or sarin nerve agent, most being 155 mm artillery shells, each shell contains 2 to 5 liters of sarin capable of killing thousands of people under the right conditions in highly populated areas. 07/05/2008 550 tons of concentrated natural uranium(yellow cake) reached a canadian port, after a highly secret operation to remove these remnants of saddam's quashed nuclear program, the trip included a two week airlift from Bagdad and a ship voyoge crossing two oceans, and we didn't even mention the scud missiles saddam fired off, those we found and destroyed and those that were left unfired, and the thirty plus aircraft that have been found buried in the desert,lots of systems capable of mass death and destruction by anyone's books, Obuma Bin Lyin can play games with words all he wants, he can shake hands and smile with all the tyrants and terrorists he wants too, he can blame America for all the worlds ills and pander to all the enemies of America but he hasn't changed a single mind or evil intent of any of America's  terrorist enemies, they still hate us, and still intend to kill and destroy us at any and all oppurtunities, anyone who believes otherwise is denying reality. I also feel that if you were to somehow ask how the families of America's armed forces how they feel about the sacrifice their loved ones gave  for their country, I think you will find the vast majority support the mission and feeling their loved ones died fighting the enemies of America, and who wish and hope to kill a whole lot more americans, they died fighting for what they believed in and volunteered for, they died fighting to win, not lose,or have an exit stratigy,or surrender,withdraw with dignity or honor, they died fighting for and believing in victory over terrorism, but mostly they died for each other, for the man or woman on their right or left, and the fear of letting down their fellow warriors,WE FIGHT TO WIN, Americans are a nation of winners if you don't believe that you belong somewhere else.

[TheOracle]

Mike I agree with you on the no bailouts for failed companies. I am not against the GOP, but they had their shot for 8 years and now look at the country, what great agenda did they achieve?
I am not some crazy lib who just wants to pull out of Iraq, I realize it would be an absolute disaster for the US and a tragic waste of live already given, however, it was a stupid war to start in the first place. Iraq was never a threat to our national security. Either the intelligence was really that bad, or GW had an axe to grind. I think it was the later. Either way we are there and we have to win. I just don't think oops we were wrong about weapons of mass destruction is very consoling to those who have lost love ones.

[Valley Cat]

Oracle,

I did not support the bailouts - companies that make products people don't want to buy and/or sell them at prices people are not willing to pay deserve to fail, and fail they will. The bailouts will only delay the inevitable. Back in my Jr./Sr. year of college, I bought a 1975 Monza Spider. Not a Muscle Car but handled great and got 30 MPG on the highway. Thirty MPG 34 years ago! Alas, the car fell apart before reaching the 80,000 mile mark.

In 1981 I bought a Toyota Corolla. It got 34 MPG highway, 35 if I drove real conservatively. I didn't take real good care of it, sometimes going 30,000 miles between oil changes. It died about 18 years later, with just 280,000 miles on it.

It's not that I want to see GM fail, I'm old enough to remember Grandma, Baseball, Apple Pie and Chevrolet. It was the largest company in the world. But (pun intended) the wheels fell off its car. My great-grandchildren are going to pay for our attempt to keep it afloat. I applaud GWB's courage and determination not to back down from terrorists but he rates as bad as his dad (Read my lips... no new taxes) at being a conservative. I'll also give him, McCain and others credit for wanting to regulate Fannie and Freddie but I suspect George's heart wasn't in it - like I said, a housing boom is great for every sector of society. But it became a house of cards.

Mike

[TheOracle]

Mike,

There is an excellent article in the Enquirer today by Paul Krogman about what unregulated freemarkets and banking did to Ireland, and what it is doing to the US. Capitalism is a good thing, however, its' based on the theory that everyone is acting in there own best interest not society's. There needs to be safe guards to protect other peoples money and the tax payers. You see what unbrideled greed has brought us the tax payer. Capitalism means you rise and fall on your actions, not come to the taxpayer for a bailout. GW was never a conservative, he grew the government not shrunk it.

[Nemesis]

Excellant post VC, I will agree that the reason republicans got" beat" last election was because too many of them were trying to be like liberal democrats,they abandoned those values and platforms that seperate the two parties trying to partisapate in the phony democrat popularity contests, some choose to ignore that President Bush sounded more than one alarm very early in his administration about the need for change in regulation (more) and oversight in fannie and freddie, as well as did John McCain, we had a solid parade of democratic leaders paraded on liberal biased media saying nothing was wrong and they didn't need any more oversight or regulations, and when you look at the list of names who were some of the largest recipients of money from these funds you cannot honestly escape the conclusion that the demms were neck deep as the cause of this problem, as far as the debt the President was forced to fight a war on terrorist not just both houses encouraged and authorized his action but the American people overwhelmingly demanded he act, as well as create more govermental agencies to deal with the war and national security and transportation issues.Again I didn't agree with the Presidents stance on securing our borders, nor with his early handling of the war on terrorism, I said loud and often we went in to light on troops and to narrow of objectives,time has proved that right, as far as jobs going  overseas you need to go back and look at the legislators who supported those measures that supported that you might find a surprise, and lets not forget that the over regulation of business and industry in the USA has already destroyed several industries from America and will continue to do so, anti business policy hurts us all, the knowledge that the houses of government oppose the drilling of Americas ample oil supplies garuntee high prices and reliance on foreign oil, the knowledge that both houses of government oppose building more nuclear power plants  garuntee higher energy costs, the so called call for alternative fuel has garunteed higher food prices as well as dictated food shortages in the second and third world countries,there exists no urgent need to convert the infrastructure of America power distribution that causes the turmoil in the daily lives and draining of our families resources(money) that has been the result of so many of the stupid and assinine policies proposed by the liberal democrats, it's clear to me it's not about what's good for America, it's all about accumulating more power for the democratic leadership, ohh and by the way many people had your same arguements back when the Japanese were going to own America and our deficits were so huge in their favor and they owned so much and were invested in us, wonder what happened to that I never felt the need to learn japanese nor do I feel the need to learn chinese yet, that could change with Americas disarmament in the face of the growing power of our enemies, if obuma bin lyin gets all his wishes.

[Valley Cat]

If one watched Glen Beck at the Alamo's Tea Party, they know the idea behind the protests was not about Donkeys or Elephants but about government spending and taxation - period, end of story. I can sort of understand GB selling out his conservative principles based on the misguided idea that bailing out "too big to fail" companies would preserve his legacy but he lost it by caving in.

Those who argue that deregulation of banking rules led to this collapse apparently have no knowledge whatsoever of basic economic principles. Banks make money by lending money to people who can pay it back. But it was easy for everyone in gov - assess and elephants alike - to agree that making owning a home was a great thing to not just relax rules but to mandate more loans. Builders benefited, because they sold more home. So did lumber companies, roofing companies, electricians, plumbers, landscapers, real estate agents, schools, water companies - basically every sector of society. Just like automobile manufacturers, along with people who raised fowl would have reaped huge dividends if every American had a car in every garage and a chicken in every pot.

Of course, the loans were backed by the full faith and credit of the US of A government. So what if Tim and Terry were only bringing home $400 a week, there was no reason they should not be able to buy a $100,000 home and only put $1,000 down. Except for the fact that they could not afford it if anything interrupted their monthly income and spending levels.

Enter high gas prices that caused panic and a change in habits of almost every American. The 20 hours of overtime per week lots of workers were getting disappeared and in lots of cases meant 30 hours a week of work. Not only were people not competing to buy houses, they quit buying them. The economy contracts, as it is a self-correcting mechanism.

But what does government do? Spend trillions of dollars to prop up industries that should fail and in doing so ransoms our kids', grandkids' and great-grand kids' future. Massive layoffs lead to far fewer income tax dollars flowing to the treasury, and the solution is to pass hidden taxes, taxes that affect only smokers, drinkers, drivers, food eaters.

"Your take home pay is now $14 a week higher than it was when I took office" sounds like a great stump speech and a huge plus. But who cares if the increase in all the other taxes means I now spend $16 a week more to buy the same things I did before the tax cuts took effect?

It would be eye-opening if some members from The Greatest Generation could post about how when they were raising a family, the sales tax rate was 2 percent or less, there was not a city income tax or a state income tax. Did you know Ohio did not have a state income tax until 1972? How on earth did it survive for 169 years without one?

Mike

[TheOracle]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention the GOP big business tag team on the manufacturing base in this country. We don't need manufactoring we are a "service economy now". I bet those factory jobs sound pretty good right now to some peope. It is ironic that we borrowed, at interest, the money for GW's stimulus checks in 2008 from the Chinese and Saudis, then returned the money to them by filling up our cars and buying cheap toys and electronics. Brilliant! I am not some crazy lib, GW hater. I foolishly voted for the man. Twice. The GOP had nearly 8 years to push its' conservative agenda and what did we get? Secure boarders? An end to abortion? Reduced government spending? No. We got high gas prices, a misguided war, and a ruined economy. I need to go brush up on my Chinese now seeing as much of our debt they are buying and the way their kids are kicking our butts in school they will soon own us. I am just happy when I reach a call center that speaks our language.

[JOE L.]

You are the master at bulls**t, and don't flatter yourself I am not obsessed with you, in fact I don't know why I waist my time debating you. You and people like you are why the Republicans got massacred, and if they keep pandering to your kind, will never be a factor again.