Fire by Distillery

[CarthagePrez]

Wow, I never thought of traffic on 75 calling in.  That would have sent them to the wrong side of the building in the first place.

The truth shall set them free!

[Backdraft]

Your certainly welcome. CFD has a proud history of over 150 years of getting it done......no reason to change now

[Valley Cat]

Backdraft,

Thanks for the info. I figure with a username like you have, you would know!

[Backdraft]

CFD was originally dispatched to the Distillery, due to call ins from southern bound I-75.....that was the cause for the delay. Normal respose time for CFD is w/in 8 min. anywhere in the city.

[CarthagePrez]

Alright, now we've got something to work with!

So an early call may have been made with bad info as to location.  Assuming that the CFD went in to the distillery main entrance on Paddock, they could have had quite a time getting any further north - that is a maze of obstacles back there with the variety of businesses and debris.  Or there may have been tactical reasons to change the attack direction - we'll probably never know.

Why did the cops block traffic at the bridge instead of the last open intersection?  My guess would be to secure the access to the site and/or direct the fire companies to a driveway.  Think perimeter security and reconnaisance.  Once that was handled, expand the perimeter with consideration of traffic flow.  This is weak; more likely is an honest mistake or some sort of policy that didn't quite fit the situation.  Overall, a pretty minor complaint since the police often do things we don't quite understand and the result was only a little inconvenience to the drivers.

It may be worthwhile to ask the CFD what the times were and what caused the perceived delays, but I bet we'll never see it in the Enquirer.  Special Report in the Courier maybe?  Even if any delays were legitimate, a little insight into the response would help overall understanding within the general public.

As to fears about how the City will handle a major event, just look at the response to the Styrene leak last summer.  Some called it an overreaction, but you can bet the involved agencies learned some lessons.  In addtion, all City employees are required to complete National Incident Management System training this summer as part of Homeland Security so these situations will be handled better in the future.

[Dawn Longworth]

Just want to let everyone know that Hartwell was having a festival and the Hamilton Cty Emerg. Truck and crew was with us.  Believe me...those guys headed out REAL quick. I thought it was the Fairgrounds at first.  There were events going on all over the city and the firemen DO come out to those events to help inform families and children about fire safety.  MAYBE...they were not at the Fire House.  At last months HIA meeting, we were getting a fire report and the fireman got a call on his radio and he ran out mid sentence.  I dont even think he realized that he was addressing the neighborhood.  When that call came out....he was gone...as a matter of fact.  He ran out of the building with his crew.  I am sure if anyone wanted to deliver some treats to those guys, someone would give you the 411 to the 911.  My boyfriend had no idea what happened until I got home and told him (DUH) he said the whole house shook and he thought the roof caved in (did I say DUH).  I asked if he went outside to make sure there wasnt another tree on the house, he said no. (sorry, I had to play his DUH game, we had a 100+ year old tree fall on our house couple of years ago).  I told him if he would have gone out he would have seen the smoke.  We should be praying for the families of those who lost their loved ones and praying for the young man trying to fight for his life. 

[Valley Cat]

Rob,

<editing this as you replied before I had a chance to post anything!>

I don't know who called 911 or when the call was made but given the amount of time I was at home before seeing the smoke and then the time I was at the fire before any police of fire officials were present (except for the Fair's Emergency squad who happened to be at an event in Hartwell), I suspect there had to be a SNAFU someplace. As I stated earlier, CFD is normally extremely quick to respond. I also saw Elmwood Police on the scene (on Wayne) before CPD arrived. And for unknown reasons, CPD blocked traffic at the bridge, not at Avalon or the street that runs into Galbraith. Unaware drivers went down Wayne only to have to turn around.

From initial reports a person saw smoke and flames coming from the building and then heard the explosion. He said he called 911. It is possible the caller said the fire was at the Beam Plant and the FD went to the wrong place. I just know it seemed to take quite a while for anyone besides individuals to show up.

This is not meant to denigrate the guys in the red trucks. They are normally very fast. The 17 minutes is my best guestimate of the amount of time. It could have been 15 minutes from the initial blast or as many as 20.

I was sitting inside the front of the house, by the window, with the doors and windows open. I heard a noise, somewhat like a high speed jet but not quite. My first thought was that it was a sonic boom except the noise came first, then the shake. Never really gave much more thought about it. I'm about 2500 feet or so from the plant. As we were driving toward the fire (at the time, we had no idea where it was at), I could see the flames from Avalon.

It's also worth noting that Channel 5 news was there before the FD, though only by a minute or so.

[CarthagePrez]

Oww, my eyes!  Blinding flash of the obvious!   

Okay, as a reporter, by all means ask questions of the authorities.  After all, that's  responsibility in a free democracy.  But what I see here is public griping that sightseers got to the scene first while the emergency folks were lollygagging around.  Legitimate questions can be asked of the Department discretely and then the results reported for better or worse.  I stand by my opinion that we don't know enough to make these judgements and should let the professionals - CFD and news media - do thier respective jobs.  Al I hear anymore is how crappy city services are and most of the bitching is done by people who don't know anything about the jobs and how things work.  You know how often I get a blank stare when I tell people about the 591-6000 number and the fact that it is a front door to EVERY city department?  That's not to say that improvements can't be made, but let's not trash the city unneccessarily.

I'm sorry that two have died and a third seems to be hanging on by a thread, but let's be grateful that the CFD kept the fire from spreading to the rest of the complex (imagine the alcohol fire if the distillery caught), police kept onlookers out of harm's way and the whole thing happened on a Saturday afternoon instead of a full-fledged work day when there may have been more people in the building.  Thanks to the mutual aid agreements that allowed other departments respond without having to deal with red tape.  Many thanks to those outside responders who put thier health and well being on the line for people who don't pay thier salary.

Now, on to the rambling......................

 

Seeing how things went today, I worry about the City of Cincinnati being able to cope with an emregency. Close to twenty minutes to respond to an explosion that rattled homes in at least a half-mile radius? That had to include the Fire Station in Carthage[/b]. Scary.

Measured in straight-line distance, my house is 3350 ft from the tower of the collapsed building.  I heard no explosion, but rather the house "moved" as though the front door had been opend more quickly than the air could move.  You know, windows shut AC on full and Richard Simmons makes a dramatic high-speed entrance, that kind of thing.  I checked my basement first thinking the water heater had suffered a late ignition - no dice.  Next I went outside to see if something had happened to the exterior - nothing out there.  After two laps around my house I finally saw the column of smoke over the houses across the street.  No way to know the point of origin there.  I couldn't tell if it was on the highway, in Roselawn/Sycamore Twp or what, just that it was northeast of me.

My wife was at Carthage Christian Church, a solid brick structure just 2600 ft away from the blast.  I called her and she had felt and heard nothing.  Only after I coaxed her out of the building and across the street did she finally see the smoke around the trees.  Again, no useful information to call in with, but she at least narrowed it down to the Fairgrounds based on the sightline.

The fire house is 3070 ft away from the blast, again a nice solid brick structure.  It is highly doubful that if the blast was not seen, heard or felt at 2600 ft that the men on duty would have noticed it at 3070 ft.  Had they noticed it, there still would have been time elapsed before they knew where to go.  What if they made a guess and ended up on the wrong side of the highway?  More lost time.

So we are back to those Anthony Wayne folks who would have been the first to know an address or intersection to send the first responders to.  How much time did they spend just figuring out what had happened or what to report?  How long before someone had the thought to dial?  Unless you are highly trained/experienced in these things you will simply not think clearly in the first moments and time will be lost through no fault of your own.

Yes, 17 minutes seems lengthy for a truck to make two right hand turns and slide through a huge intersection during low traffic volume, but without seeing the official timeline I am not willing to publicly malign these folks.  What if they were on scene 2 minutes after the alarm was given to them?  Now who gets the blame for the other 15 minutes?  Where did the 17 minute figure come from in the first place?  Is it just a best guess?  Could the 911 operators have been overwhelmed by a huge call volume?  Were the dispatchers in a haze?  Was the responding company even at the fire house or had they gone to get groceries?

If anyone is still reading this, I'm not saying that 17 minutes is a justifyable response time, but simply that we have a lack of official information and are defaming the same people we count on to serve us in times of great need.

[Dogtown]

Until we all become experts in emergency response logistics, I think we should hold our tongues.  If there is reason for the command structure to suspect a delay then they will investigate and the media will get wind of it.  Our first-responders are professionals in a dangerous occupation and do not deserve to be second-guessed by armchair quarterbacks.

 Geez CP, the Valley Cat is a newspaperman, you know. He's not "second-guessing" anybody (yet), but would it be okay with you if he asks some questions about the situation? 

 To rephrase your words a bit and turn them around: If there is reason for the media to suspect a delay in response time, they have every right to investigate by talking to that command structure. Sometimes, THAT is the way the scenario  plays out.


Dogtown, President
Dogtown Fan Club.

[CarthagePrez]

Okay, let's take a headcount:  There were only 4 people in the building, one dead, two injured and a third trying to save the others.  So who is left to call 911?  How long did it take to get a call in to the distpachers with any useful information?  A better measure of the response time is the elapsed time between the alarm and arrival.  I don't know who made the first call with information the first-responders could use or how long it took to get that information.  It seems that the first people to realize what happened and where it happened would have been residents along Anthony Wayne.  To find the true source of any response delay, let's interview these folks to see who first thought to pick up the phone and when.

My house was hit by the shockwave but I never heard the explosion.  I was checking my basement and exterior structure wondering what had happened, suspecting a faulty gas-fired waterheater.  By the time I saw the smoke over the neighbor's houses and trees, sirens were already being heard and I still had no information to call into 911.  My wife was closer to the blast in a stronger building and never would have known it had even happened had I not called her - she neither heard nor felt the explosion.  We cannot expect the fire department to just jump into thier trucks and start driving around because someone heard a noise.  The firefighters may not have even felt the concusion in the first place.

On the several occasions they have made runs to my street they were prompt and professional.  I have great respect for these men and women who rush towards that which most of us would, or should, run from.

Until we all become experts in emergency response logistics, I think we should hold our tongues.  If there is reason for the command structure to suspect a delay then they will investigate and the media will get wind of it.  Our first-responders are professionals in a dangerous occupation and do not deserve to be second-guessed by armchair quarterbacks.

[Valley Cat]

In all fairness, it took every bit of 17 minutes for CFD to arrive on Wayne. They may have been on the scene - in the back - a little quicker, but there were no sirens.

Normally, the response time is much, much quicker. Two different times, they have been to my house in less than five minutes. (They mistook a grill out for a bonfire the second time, the first time I did have a bonfire, but I was following the words of Ben Franklin or Sam Adams - whoever - to celebrate the 4th of July with bonfires.)

It's way past time for Mr. Tick to host a party. I'm considering having one in early September, if I can find the time. It will be the 10th year I have owned the paper.

[bobh]

Mike I can't believe it took 17 min for cint fire to respond to the scene. Also I think it's about time for the tick to host the party.   :party

[Valley Cat]

It was wierd. We got there maybe 12 minutes after the original explosion - we saw the smoke in the sky. But we were there for five, maybe more minutes before CFD showed up. We heard the screams for help, probably from the hero who pulled the two guys out of the inferno. Cops blocked off access down Anthony Wayne, but only at the bridge that crosses the Mill Creek. Dozens of cars were driving down Wayne only to find they couldn't get through. At the least, they should have blocked it at Avalon; a better place would have been at the street that runs into Galbraith.

Seeing how things went today, I worry about the City of Cincinnati being able to cope with an emregency. Close to twenty minutes to respond to an explosion that rattled homes in at least a half-mile radius? That had to include the Fire Station in Carthage. Scary.

[helperofsome]

Thanks for the update...We were going out to dinner tonight and tried to take a look at this.  We were very busy today with yard work and I really appreciated the update.   

[Valley Cat]

What a explosion. Shoot my home on Anthony Wayne. Photos are here http://www.valleycat.net/page51.html. Click on them for a larger view. The first one was taken from Avalon.